Identification Lampro

Voilà, j'ai acheté un lampro getula goini. On me l'a vendu comme un adulte régulier. J'ai poster des photos de lui sur un forum Québecois sur lequel je suis chargée de section. Tous m'on dit qu'il s'agissait d'un Goini régulier sublime qui avait apparemment gardé ses couleurs de juvénile. Je planifiais de le reproduire vue le nombre d'intéresser. Par contre, le doute c'est semé dans mon esprit. J'ai beaucoup de mal à trouver une Goini qui lui ressemble. Sur un autre forum canadien dont je fais partie, certains m'ont dit qu'il s'agissait d'un régulier avec de belles couleurs, d'autres m'ont dit qu'il était de phase blaze. Et maintenant ici on me dit qu'il pourrait s'agir d'un intergrade. Et ça m'embête beaucoup de pas savoir ce que je compte reproduire et de pas savoir si je doit le reproduire (je suis plutôt puriste). Il provient d'une animalerie (achat imprévue) donc je n'ai pas beaucoup de renseignement sur lui, autre qu'il est adulte et proviens de chez Mirdo importations canada inc.

Pour ceux qui veulent voir les photos, voici le post ou la discussion à commencé, mais répondez ici, s'il-vous-plait question de ne pas semer la confusion, loll.

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Akuaterrak a écrit:

Eniel a écrit:

Jewel (mâle lampropeltis
getula goini) On me l'a vendu comme un régulier, mais à cause de ses
couleurs, certains me disent qu'il serait de phase blaze???

2 formes sauvages ressemblantes existent :
Lampropeltis getulus floridana "goini" au niveau du dessin et couleur des selles (saddles) du corps,
et "brooksi" au niveau de la couleur de la tête essentiellement, et des écailles aussi à dominante claire.
Selon Blaney ces 2 variétés seraient déjà des intergrades naturels entre floridana et getulus

Ref TFH TS 125 Kingsnakes and Milksnakes

Donc
tu serais sur un intergrade d'intergrade, une mutation résultant de
sélection humaine, ça peut être considéré comme une "phase"...

nb: la couleur risque d'évoluer avec l'âge.

Akuaterrak a écrit:

Si il y a un projet de repro ça vaut le coup qu'on s'y penche...

En furetant un peu j'ai trouvé un article d'une personne qui semble faire partie d'une équipe à la base du projet "blaze".
Je l'ai contacté pour savoir si je pouvais utiliser ses écrits et photos, en attendant voici le lien:
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voir aussi les autres posts plus bas

Je
regarde les photos et je ne trouve pas vraiment que ça ressemble au
mien. Voici une vidéo de lui pour le voir plus en entier et sans que le
flash puisse influencer ses couleurs.

Good news, Tony Dongarra a répondu à mon mail, on a donc le droit de traduire son article et de publier ses photos.
> Reste à trouver qui va s'y coller, tu peux Eniel?

De mon côté je vais le remercier et lui envoyer tes photos pour en avoir le cœur net

Publié avec l'aimable autorisation de Mr Tony from [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
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“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” Charles Darwin


A little history on the Blaze phase goini. In the late 90s several breeders including myself and the McQuates we independently working on line breeding for “hi-red” goini. As most people know neonate goini are spectacular animals but loose much of their color as adults. None of us at the time were working with locality specimens but neither were we looking to outcross these animals into anything that would dilute the intensity of red. It was during this period that the McQuates popped out a rather unique animal that was a quantum improvement over the rest of the clutch. This one snake was the first blaze and it was bred back into the line and proved to behave as a simple recessive trait. This is a key point; “blaze” as a trait arose out of a line-bred project but is a discrete heritable trait that follows a classic mendelion pattern.

It has been said to be a HYPERtheristic (sp?) because it looked intensely red as a neonate but I came to believe that is was some sort of HYPOmelanism. I thought this for two reasons. Number 1, if you were expecting a hi red animal the original blaze disappointed as adults. Second, normal goini are hi high red as neonates. I theorized that they just looked redder because the melanin was reduced. I was not alone in this and several detractors started saying that the blaze line was simple a goini X hypo brooks cross. This “theory” was tested and found to be false as goini proved not to be allelic with the hypo trait found in brooks kings. At the time there were several line of hypo brooks but all were know to be allelic or compatible.

Still accusations that the McQuate created blaze by crossing persists. People who push this have to conveniently forget that it’s a heritable trait not idetified in other kings and site pattern characteristics they feel are un-goini. However, just because one does not understand the mechanism of this trait is not sufficient evidence of its origin.

My experience with blaze is that this form of hypomelanism , as do others, affects not only the intensity of melanin but pattern elements as well. In other words, not only is black pigment muted to varying degrees but the area occupied by melanin based pigment is also diminished.

The attached picture demonstrates this. You can see that the primary blotch element of the patter has greatly reduced amount of melanin with pigmented area receding to the scale edges. The inter space pattern which would normally have lighter scales with clean well defined tips of darker pigment show a similar though nearly complete recession of pigmentation. Given that the original het blaze exhibited typical goini pattern elements the anomaly observed in the homozygous form has to be attributed to the trait. Anyone claiming that it’s due to crossing isn’t looking at the evidence.


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BTW, this was one of the original blaze.
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My experience with blaze is that this form of hypomelanism , as do others, affects not only the intensity of melanin but pattern elements as well. In other words, not only is black pigment muted to varying degrees but the area occupied by melanin based pigment is also diminished.

After re-reading the post I wanted to revisit this portion. My observations of blaze leads me to believe that the primary mechanism is a reduction in the amount a melanin vice the reduction in its intensity. This is not without analogue. There are two closely related milk snakes that each exhibit a form of hypomelanism, syspila and temproalis. In the syspila hypo there is a general reduction in the amount of melanin. As a result the reds and white are cleaner and the black bands are more slight but remain well defined. In temporalis the hypo trait primarily manfests as a reduction in the intensity of the black pigment. Hypo temporalis can look anywhere from just a very clean looking normal (kind of like the syspila hypo) to something that almost looks albino. In fact many people call them T plus albinos (which is another misnomer).

Anyway my take is that the blaze trait is similar to the syspila type of hypo. As neonates these guys are blazing. The red, ever present in neonate goini, is more prominent because its less masked by melanin not because there is more of it. As the animal ages and both red and black pigments fade you're left with an animal that in my opinion lacks the contrast and luster of the original.

I've posted a couple of pics of the hypo temporalis to show the range of expression you can seen in the melanin. The lone animal is quite dark while those in the clutch shot almost look albino. part of that difference is exposure but not much. As an aside the darker ones look better as adults.

La suite: une réponse de GérardS (je n'ai pas son autorisation donc sous réserve de droits) from [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]


I enjoyed that history and I bet you had some amazing animals. The story I have heard and I'm hoping that he will come and post himself, is that the original animals didn't only come from wc goini/meansi but other breeders offspring as well. The animals back then were thought to be just a Floridana and were regularly mixed together. As for the inheritance of the morph, it could have easily popped out of a unintentional crossing and has nothing to do with my opinion on the animals.

F1 female


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Gerard

RE: Blaze

There is no doubt about the fact that the entire eastern complex was widely crossed and these were indeed the early days of striving to create as many new morphs and morph combinations as possible. The original albino Florida kings, at least the ones I saw in 93, were obvious Cal king crosses.

Despite this, there was nothing you could cross a goini to that would increase the amount of red. You didn't get a hi-red goini by crossing it into easterns or Floridas you got it by aquireing and breeding the best goini and holding back the best of the best. This is just my two cents but the strategy behind developing a hi red line of goini pretty much ensured that they were among the least compromised lines available in those days.

Now if a few zealots want to call out all hobby generics as hybrid crap that's a point of opinion I've learned to live with but calling out a specific line as was done earlier with blaze only demonstrated a poor understanding of the animals history and husbandry.
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Tony D

RE RE: Blaze from GerardS

What I meant was, I understand the blaze is a unique morph and isn't the product of hybridizing. Line breeding like you guys were doing is exactly how you would prove out a trait hidden in a species. If you breed a hypo brooks to a goini and breed those babies back to each other, you would get hypo crosses, right? I am by no means saying that is what I think about how the blaze were made, not at all. I think it is a unique morph that poped up from a wc line that was crossed at one point. The crap I was referring to was all the hobby generics, animals being sold as meansi/goini that are not. The Blaze that SOMEBODY started are included in that.

Dixie county intergrade


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Gerard

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Voilà, y a plus qu'à traduire / comprendre, on voit ds la discussion avec GérardS qu'il y aurait au moins 2 versions de la naissance des "Blaze".
Peut-être y a-t-il eu effectivement 2 lignées crées de façons différentes > il y a des "blaze" très flashys, rien à voir avec le tien qui ressemble beaucoup à la lignée de Tony.

J'ai envoyé tes photos à Tony qu'il nous dise ce qu'il en pense...

Désolé, j'ai été un peu absente c'est jours-ci. Merci pour tout ce texte!!! Je suis pas experte en anglais (vive google translate) lolll